Sally
Hey, pals, welcome back to Pocket Money. It's Sally here, and today, I'm going to be shining the spotlight on Australian digital bank Up. You might have seen it all over social media, but in case you haven't, Up is a branch-less tech-led bank that has been praised for its pretty unique user-focused features. Up also cleaned up with three trophies at Finder's Innovation Awards this year for best tech and banking innovation as well as the digital disrupter of the year. Pretty impressive.
So for this episode, I had a chat with one of the masterminds and co-founders Dom Pym about what makes Up different from all of the other banks out there as well as some of its coolest features, including one called the Naked Truth, which of course caught my eye. Whoo. So listen out for that.
Just a quick note before we jump in. This interview actually took place a week ago or so, and Don mentioned an exciting secret project and partnership that was coming up a couple of times when we chatted. But since then, we found out that Up is teaming up with TransferWise. So this means that Up members can send money overseas in 52 currencies, from their transaction accounts via TransferWise without needing to leave the Up app. So that's pretty cool. So let's get into it. Welcome, Dom, to Pocket Money. Thanks for joining me today.
Dom Pym
Thank you for having me.
Sally
So there are over 50 banks in Australia right now. And you've started another one. So what makes Up different?
Dom Pym
So, in the last year, I might have answered that question differently because we've evolved so quickly. And now I think it boils down to two or three very simple things. One is that we're technology-led banking, and that's quite different than bank-led technology. And I just ask people the question, can you think of a bank that does technology well? You can think of banks that might do financial services well, or might do marketing well, or whatever, but actually think of a bank that does technology well. So the first point is that we're technology led with a technology mindset. That means we're customer centric; that means we're design driven; that means we're using the latest technology, cloud hosting, mobile only, all that sort of stuff. So that's number one. Number two is what I call excellence in everything. You can't have just a good price because it's a race to the bottom. You can't just have good products, if they're not well priced. You can't have good products, if you don't have good customer support. You can't have good customer support if you don't have a good customer experience for your app and so on. So you have to actually have all of those things in order to be competitive in the Australian market because the incumbent banks are actually really pretty good on a global scale. And the third one for us is that we don't sell banking, we sell engagement. Our customers, our average customer age is skewed very young. 50% of our customers are between 16 and 24. And so our largest age group of customers is 19, which means that they don't have experience with banking. They don't have a lot of money. They're just learning, they're just getting started. And so for us, engagement is the product. You download the app, you sign up for an account in less than three minutes. The average time to get a bank account that you can literally use straight away with your digital wallet, Google Pay, or Apple Pay or any of the others is two minutes and 12 seconds. That's how we're different, we're very disruptive. You don't have a username and password. We have all the security and everything that is required, but you don't log in every time to Facebook when you open the app on your phone. So why should you log into your bank every time you log in. It doesn't make sense. So yeah, so they're probably the three main reasons.
Sally
Wow. And I wanted to talk through some of the specific features and where they came from, maybe what they were inspired by. So, the first one I wanted to chat about was the Naked Truth function, which I think is awesome, but maybe a bit of a scary thought after a night out.
Dom Pym
With those sort of things, transparency is absolutely key but also really good communication. So we've been building, for about more than five years now, a merchant identification system and we think that is the best system in the world. And what that helps you do is understand your spending automatically because, if you'd like, the first step in being able to do automate categorization or automated reporting or anything or insights, you know, what we call meaningful insights, you can't do all those things unless you have the data right in the first place. So we literally spent the last five or six or even more now, probably getting close to eight years, building technology that actually can power that feature. It's not just about showing fancy logos or showing a map or location or anything like that. It's about actually understanding the spend because if you buy a beer or if you stay overnight at a hotel, they both come up as hotel. So how do you know the difference. And we've identified 77,000 merchants in Australia. And we also did a partnership with Afterpay. And that partnership delivers a digital receipt. So if you purchase something from over 20,000 merchants across Australia, in fact, they're all over the world now, but particularly in Australia, then you get this skewed data, which is like the actual data about the item that you purchased. So if you buy a pair of jeans, it'll say inside your banking app that you bought a pair of Levi's size 18 or size 14 or whatever they are. And so that's quite extraordinary. And if you buy something online from those merchants, it'll tell you what the taxes, the GST, it's tell you what the shipping costs are and all that. And it'll break that down inside your banking app. So we've never really seen anything like that in the world when we launched it. And now there's a few other banks around the world doing it. But that's what we mean when we say Naked Truth. We mean like, exposing all your data to you so that you can make informed choices and decisions yourself. We're not going to tell people what to spend their money on. What we're going to say is, this is what you spent your money on and then you can make a choice. And you can decide is that right for me? Is that right for my circumstances? If I'm saving up for something, should I be spending money on this thing, and so on and so forth, but that's really up to the customer to make that choice?
Sally
Cool. So you're not gonna get a notification like "Another pair of jeans? Really? I know it's Black Friday, but come on".
Dom Pym
Yeah, hopefully not.
Sally
Cool. And then the other feature that I thought was really interesting was multiple savings accounts.
Dom Pym
Yeah, our view is that as a bank, we can't dictate to people how to run their life. What we can do is help support people in living their life. If you use Up, you can set up as many, we call them savers, as you like. If you're saving for an iPad, you're saving for a holiday, saving for a pair of jeans, you know, whatever it is. And then every one of those savers is eligible to earn the bonus interest. Now, you might just say, so what? But actually with most other banks in Australia, in fact, I don't know if there's any that do what Up does, they only have one account that you're able to earn interest on. So even if you can open more Savers, you only get this sort of almost nothing base interest on that. So with Up, you get interest across the aggregate of all of your savers, which I think is really important, but also by segregating those things, both mentally and practically in the app, it helps you to save better and then what a lot of people say to us, especially because they're a young audience, is "I don't have any money to save". But you know, we have a round-ups feature. And we're the second bank in Australia to actually launch it to customers. Basically, what it allows you to do is go and buy say a coffee or whatever it is for say $2.70. And then it rounds it up to $3.00. And that 30 cents goes into your savings account. You can nominate which of your savers it goes into if you're saving for a holiday or saving for an iPad or whatever it is. So that's cool. But actually there's banks all over the world that are doing that now and some of them been doing it for like 10 years, you know, whatever. So we created some other new ideas. So one is called the boosted round-up. So you can actually nominate to round up whole dollars. So if you bought a banana for $1, then it will round it up to $2 if you wanted to. And then you can also add a boost. And the boost, what it'll do is you can choose between $1 and $10. So if you're saving up for holiday, and you're leaving in 23 days, and so you haven't got a lot of time to save say the last $300, last $200 or whatever it is, then you can turn your round-ups on and you can turn your boosts on. And you can decide for each purchase, whether you boost $1, $2 all the way up to $10. And so that means that with each purchase, you might buy that banana for $1 and you might save $3 or $4. And that subconscious saving we found is really, really important for a young audience. And the other one that went kind of viral was that we implemented a feature where you pull down on your app. So when you're looking at your balance, you just pull down on your app, we call it pull to save, and when you pull down, it sort of snaps back, and then you can feel the haptic feedback in the phone vibrating. And then it shows you a picture of the money being deposited into your actual piggy back, into your saver. You know, shortly after we launched it, 65,000 people actually used it and now we get, we had millions of dollars saved through people doing this and what's amazing about it is it's actually helping an entirely new generation save without physical money and without a piggy bank. So if I said to you, how much money have you got in your pocket? Nobody carries cash, right? So, but when I was a kid, we carried cash. And we had, might have had even too many boxes, one for the gold coins, one for the silver coin, you know, like, for example, and then when you save up for a few years, and then you smash open your money box, and you pull out and you got $100 or $20, whatever it was you managed to save. We're now doing that for the next generation of Australians. And we're doing it digitally.
Sally
I love that. It's like the gamification of saving. We had a really good chat with Paul Harrison about like the psychology of spending. And he was talking about that, like when you're spending with your card, you don't feel the pain of handing over physical cash, but then it's like the same thing. You don't feel the reward when you're just like, "Oh yeah, I'll just move a couple hundred dollars over into my savings". Whereas when you're getting that and saying, you know, the visual representation of the gold coins going into the piggy bank, that's like you've actually achieved something.
Dom Pym
Yeah, no, it actually does. And it's a very subtle thing, but like the haptic feedback when your phone actually vibrates, it feels like the coins are dropping into the money box. Something like that actually sends a subconscious signal and your brain has like, you know, dopamine, you're like, oh, man, that's awesome, I just saved. And so if you can create that easy way for people to save money, then we can help people fulfil their dreams. We can help people travel. We can help people, you know, even just save up for, I don't know, to buy their kid a new pair of shoes or you know, whatever it is.
Sally
And then the next one I want to talk about was the bill prediction feature, which I thought was really awesome as well.
Dom Pym
Where we think we're quite unique is that we don't require the customer to do anything. It's like I was talking earlier about the categorization and the merchant identification, that stuff's all automatic. It's the same with the bill prediction. So we actually look at your spending history, and then automatically predict it. If we see Spotify or Netflix or something like that, we know that's a subscription, so we'll forecast that out for you and then show you what's coming in the upcoming screen. And then the good thing is that we actually show what the aggregate of all of that is, so that you can then plan for the future. By aggregating the balance, we can say in the next 30 days, you need $246 just to pay these things that we know are coming. And then there's the big things like if your car registration, that might be, I don't know, $900, or something like that, $600, whatever– it's a big chunk of money, especially for our customers. And so if that's coming up on an annual basis, we can actually identify that for you and show that it's coming up. And then that actually helps you to save. You can actually put aside money on a regular basis to save up for that, for example. So the upcoming predictions is quite awesome. A lot of people talk about machine learning and AI and all this other stuff and sure we have some algorithms and things, but it's actually pretty simple to do. It's more about the value that it offers to the customer. The insight that it provides you with, that sort of meaningful insight, and that awareness of your sort of, you know, outgoings, so that you can budget for the future is pretty amazing.
Sally
Yeah, I know that would have helped me a couple of times. You know when you get like the extra fee on top for paying your phone bill late. You're like "God damn".
Dom Pym
Yeah, I think the utility bills, the phone bills, those sort of things, but also the other one is that if you've got like a rent payment coming up, and you know, you don't have enough money for it, that's sort of the next area for us is to say, how do we help people when their upcomings exceed their balance. And I think that's a new area for us to start looking at. So you can see that a lot of the features that we will build will be in the embryonic stage. It'll be the, sort of the, first glimpse into the future. Because it's our first birthday, we're having an event in Melbourne, which is where we're based, We're hoping to get around to all the other capital cities as well. But we put out a note to say that we have this thing called the Tree of Up, which is the public roadmap. So we publish all the things that we built, all the things that we're currently building, and all the things that we're planning to build in the future. And we put that on our website. And so it's very transparent. And people can see not just when we're going to deliver things, but also the context in which we're going to deliver them. And I just mentioned that because, for two reasons, one is we said to the world that "Hey, we're going to update the Tree of Up at springtime". So it's going to spring, you know, some new growth and water the tree, you know, and so we announced that we're going to run this event. In nine minutes, we sold out. I think we had 200 or 250 tickets or something. And now we have 700 or 900 people on the wait list, like it's out of control, because everyone's really, really excited because have you ever seen a bank before, tell you what they're building and what they're going to build and so I just mentioned it, the context is that upcoming is the beginning of our predictive analysis and our budgeting tools and helping people to be able to allocate their spend and everything. We launched another feature recently, which is a salary splitter, so that when your salary comes in, you're automatically able to allocate portions of your salary into your different savers and things like that or to particular bills or whatever it might be.
Sally
Yeah, that's awesome. I actually did want to bring up the Tree of Up because, yeah, not only is it really cool for consumers to see what's happening, but you're also being very transparent with your competitors as well,
Dom Pym
Yeah. So we're not afraid to put it out there. And I guess the easiest way to describe that is that pretty much everybody who's trying to launch a new neobank in Australia, or a new challenger bank, or a new digital bank, or whatever, a lot of the business plans, a lot of the sort of ideas or whatever, are actually pretty similar. So for us, it's not so much about protecting that idea. Everybody has those ideas. In facts, it's about the execution. So what we've been able to do at Up is that Up is a collaboration between a technology company, which is my company, Ferocia, and Bendigo and Adelaide bank. So Bendigo and Adelaide Bank is a licensed bank; they're the fifth largest retail bank in Australia. And so we offer their licensed financial products through the Up platform. As a technology company, we approach everything with a technology mindset, right? So that technology mindset extends to the way that we deliver software to our customers. And so I think that the Tree of Up gives an insight, sure, to our competitors about the things we're planning for the future. If it's really top secret, or if we're under NDA or something like that, so we've got an announcement next week, the largest and fastest growing unicorn in Europe has just started expanding. A unicorn is a multi-billion dollar technology company. So they've just expanded out of Europe to America. And they announced that a couple of weeks ago, and now we're going to be the first bank that they've integrated with in Asia Pacific. So it's a big announcement. I can't say who it is. Those sort of announcements, we'll put them on the Tree of Up but it's actually a little yellow dot that says top secret project. So you could be transparent to a certain extent, and then there's other you know, legal requirements, regulatory compliance, you know, security or compliance.
Sally
So you've spoken a lot about user experience and how it is a tech-led company with those sorts of things in mind. But I think another really interesting thing about Up that is different to traditional banks is also just the way that the product is marketed. So can you tell us a little bit about that branding and how that engages the audience, you know, even with the vertical card and like pops of colour, and even just like the more relatable language that you use.
Dom Pym
So for us, it's about just expressing who we are, like, we are a bunch of people who are trying to fix banking. And we used to call it in the early days, like rebooting banking, you know, because it's like the operating system for banking is kind of broken. Actually, I think the number one thing about our marketing and our branding and our approach to customers is that it's genuine. It's just us expressing who we are. Also, we don't have a very big budget, a marketing budget. So we spent all of our marketing budget in the first few months like it's gone, you know, so for us, it's about doing ground root things like chatting with you guys or going to an event. We would engage with customers on social media. So all of those things combined and then having a really cool and different brand. Like for us, we built our brand internally the way that we would want to build a brand. And then we actually met this awesome dude Pete who has helped us. He runs a design agency, and he's been helping us over time to bring the brand alive. So that little thing we mentioned before, when you get the haptic feedback, and you see the money dropping into the saver, you know, that's bringing parts of our brand into the customer experience. For Up, every touch point, whether it's at an event, whether it's chatting like this, whether it's in the mobile app, or however you engage with us, social media, whatever, all of those things, they feel very consistent, and they feel very genuine and honest and transparent. And so I think that's just our personalities coming through and genuinely caring about the customer experience and the customer outcomes.
But there's sometimes method in the madness too. So when we launched our welcome pack, and there's a blog post about all this because we sort of go behind the scenes, we use recycled material and then it is recyclable. And then you know, we changed the grain on the cardboard. We have three layers of cardboard on our welcome pack and we changed the grain slightly by a few degrees so that it wouldn't bend in the post. So that when you open the envelope, your recycled envelope, when you open it up, you get this amazing sort of tangible experience because we're a digital bank, and so that's the only time that you ever get to touch and feel something that's tangible about Up. We thought that it was really important that the welcome pack was awesome. And our challenge there was to make the cost of that welcome pack equal to or less than what it would cost a normal bank to deliver a debit card, right? The reason we don't have the data on the front of the debit card, like it doesn't have your name or an expiry or card number. One reason is because it's cool, and it's portrait. And it's more how you use a card nowadays because you're always tapping and paying. But the other reason is, so you can share it on social media. So like 75% of our customers have come through direct referral from their mates. And what you're able to do is share it on Instagram, share it on Snapchat, or share it on Facebook or whatever, Twitter, whatever it is. And now we have hundreds, probably thousands of people doing that like every day because it's just amazing. And so I think that there's a branding element because it was just cool. But also it meant that you're not sharing your private data in your posts. All of those things combined make up what it is.
Sally
That's wild. An Instagram-friendly card. Yeah, I was gonna mention it's definitely interesting to see the engagement that you get on social because I don't think there are very many banks that would have people being like, yes, like got my new account like, you know what I mean.
Dom Pym
And we see people walking up bumping into people in the street, walking down the street wearing an Up T-shirt, wearing an Up hat.
Sally
You guys are like the rock stars of the neobanking world.
Dom Pym
Yeah, thanks for that.
Sally
So in every episode, we like to play a little game of overrated or underrated. So I'll give you a topic and then feel free to tell me if it's overrated or underrated. And then, if you have any quick feedback, you want to explain why, feel free. So first one is open banking: overrated or underrated?
Dom Pym
It's exceptionally underrated, but it's currently overrated. The reason is that it's going to take time for it to have an impact. When the big banks adopt it and adopt it well, it'll have a significant impact for all of our lives. So yeah, it's a little bit of both. It's a hard one and depends on the time frame.
Sally
What about the theory that we're all living in a computer simulation: overrated or underrated or appropriately rated?
Dom Pym
Appropriately rated. I mean, Elon Musk is the expert on it, right? He makes the most comments about it. I mean, I love the matrix. So, in fact, it's a better thought exercise than anything else, to think about whether or not we're living in a simulation and just to take a check on who we are, what we're doing, and how important our lives and our family and our friends and everything are to us.
Sally
What about learning to code: overrated or underrated
Dom Pym
It's probably underrated. I think probably it's still a bit of a niche. So like people have been, you know, writing software code since like the 1960s, or 1950s, or whatever. And it really took off in the 80s and 90s. And, we have a very strong, nearly everybody at Up is an engineer, and so we have a very strong contingent of software developers. But I think that it's still just the tip of the iceberg. I like to think of all of our customers, for example, as early adopters. It feels the same in software. Every company in the world and every job in the world is going to be touched or eaten by software. Right. So knowing how to code, knowing how to control that, is a protection against the future. And I think people should be really, really excited and interested in doing that.
Sally
What about starting a company in Australia?
Dom Pym
It's very, very hard. And we have a very small target audience, but it's a fantastic sort of hotbed for innovation, so I would say it's exceptionally underrated. I think that Australians have invented all sorts of amazing things. And on a global scale, Australians sort of punch well above their weight. And so I think that it's a really awesome opportunity for innovation, for creativity, for experimentation, for new ideas. I think, you know, if you have the desire and are interested, I think absolutely have a crack at it. And then Australia can actually form like a starting position or a sort of a trampoline for the rest of the world.
Sally
And what about the most underrated app on your phone.
Dom Pym
I reckon the best way to find that out is to have a look at your usage, right? So I look at the usage and I find it fascinating, how often the things that you might think are fairly mundane, that you actually use like the clock or the calendar.
Sally
The weather app – shout out to my boy
Dom Pym
Here's one that relates back to Up is that most people won't engage with their banking app very much. Because they're difficult, you got to log in, all this sort of stuff. With Up, certainly myself as a customer, I engage with it maybe dozens of times in a day. Because every time you purchase something, you get a push notification, it shows you your balance. So you're subconsciously always aware of us, I'm always logging in and showing people things and trying new things or finding out things. And so I think the engagement level with apps, as I was saying earlier, is, really what's key is that the level of engagement and how interesting and exciting it is and how it helps you make decisions. And so, the weather app helps you decide where to go obviously, right? Is it raining?
Sally
And what to wear.
Dom Pym
And what to wear, do I need sunscreen, you know, whatever it is. So I think the weather app and the clock and the calendar and apps like that, they're the absolute table stakes, and you forget about them, so I say they're fairly underrated.
Sally
So you've noted that you see banking evolving from products to more of a service and experience, so what's driven that thought process from a consumer perspective?
Dom Pym
Well, I probably buck the trend a little bit, I don't sort of follow the school of thought that customers know what they want. Customers actually don't know what they want. Nobody ever asked for an iPad. Nobody ever asked for a Tesla, you know, the best electric car or whatever. They ask for the things within their frame of reference that they know. And sometimes you get the odd one out, that's a great, great idea. That's not to be misunderstood about being customer centric, I think you should be customer centric. And for example, you should always be talking to your customers, listening to customers, understanding them, but you have to innovate. And to innovate, you have to actually think of ideas that customers haven't even thought of yet. No customer ever asked me for a better banking system. But they all want to travel, they want to look after their kids, they want to walk to school, ride their bike, they want to go to work, catch the train, you know, whatever it is, they want to live their lives. And so the reason I think the shift that we're seeing to services and subscriptions and all those sort of things, is actually because these banking systems and other utilities, whether it be telecommunications, whether it be taxis, whether it, whatever it is, all these services that were saying migrate away from products is simply because we're powering people's lives. It's like we're helping people to live their life better. We're not delivering banking products. So in Up , for example, you download the app, you get an account in less than three minutes, you've got a digital wallet instantly, you can go and buy a Mars bar, McDonald's, or you know, a salad sandwich, or whatever it is you want to do.
Sally
All sound great. I'll be getting one of each.
Dom Pym
But you can do that kind of instantly, you know, within the first few minutes. And so that's sort of the instant gratification, but it's also then empowering for you because you could switch your bank, or you could make a choice in your life just simply by downloading an app. So people talk about the app economy. And I think about it in the sense of the disruption. So like Uber, Airbnb, Amazon, Skype, Netflix, like these companies are technology companies, disrupting the world through apps. And so if you think about it that way, what is Up? Like Up is not, at the moment, we have three or four different financial products., we've got a debit card, we've got a savings account, we've got a transaction account, and we've got a digital wallet, right? So there's four financial products. No Up customer would ever know that. All they know is they've got Up. Whereas with other banks, you have to go and actually sign up for each of those different products. And so that's a different mindset. That's like, how do we power people's lives. When we launch our new product that we're going to announce next week, it's going to be completely embedded with our existing system.
Sally
You mentioned the app economy. We just did an episode on the subscription economy and that model. And there are a few banks that are kind of already in that space. But do you see that happening more in the banking realm?
Dom Pym
Yeah, absolutely I do and I'll tell you why is that to have a bank account in Australia basically cost you $6 a month, right? Like with any major bank, and there might be ways that you can get a cheaper account, if you're a student, or if you can get a rebate, if you do some particular things or whatever it is, but generally, across the board, that's on average, what it's going to cost you. Our view is different. It should cost nothing and then you opt in for it if you want. And onboarding and offboarding should be as easy as possible. So for example, if you sign up a Netflix account or an Amazon Prime account or a Spotify account or whatever, whenever you want to turn that off, you just turn it off, and they don't like get sort of possessive about you as a customer. One of them might send you some ADMs, like some emails or some messages to say, "Hey, you know, you going to come back?"or whatever, but it's easy to get on and off. And then because of that ease of entry and ease of exit, then you choose to power your life, how you see fit. And if you choose Prime over Stan over Netflix, or whatever it is, that that's completely up to you. Now, by having that awesomeness in banking, we never ask anybody to switch, we just actually make it really easy for people to subscribe. We don't charge fees, and we don't have a subscription product yet. But you know, maybe one day we will. And if we do have a subscription product, it'll be opt in, but you choose to opt in for that, and you have to deliver value. So if I asked you what do you get for your $6 a month in bank fees, nearly any Australian would whinge moan and complain about it, right? But if I said to you, "Hey, you can subscribe to Up for this amazing new thing that you can have for $6 a month", you'd be like, "Oh, that's cool. You know, that's awesome". And you'd be happy to pay this $6. Why? Because you're getting value. If you can ascribe the value to the fee that you're paying, then that fee should be just completely made redundant. So this is some of the philosophies, I mean, I think we will introduce some subscription products. We have to make money and we have to be sustainable and profitable in order to be, you know, our goal is to be the fifth largest bank in Australia over time and our short-term goal is to be the number one bank for under 35 in Australia.
Sally
And what's next for Up. You mentioned that you know, you guys have just celebrated your first birthday, got some ambitious goals. So what can we look forward to?
Dom Pym
Yeah, 2020 is going to be a huge year. And again, next week, we're going to be talking about the you know, the spring growth and the Tree of Up. And so basically everything will be revealed. So things like making it easier for you to travel internationally, it's already super, super easy with Up and we have no fees and all this other stuff, so that's amazing. You know, we have an international ATM fee at the moment. And we're looking to address that because we want it to be like completely free for you to travel. We're looking at ways that you can split bills with their friends, it could be your mates when you're out eating, or it could be your roommates if you're in a share house or whatever. We're looking at what are the things we can do beyond spending and saving. So for your life, to power your life, that might be things like superannuation, it might be things like investments, it might be things like a mortgage if you're saving up for a house or whatever. So I think all of those things for us up on the horizon, and everything will be revealed next week.
Sally
Wow, can't wait. Well, thank you so much Dom and we'll make sure to stay on top of the website next week.
Dom Pym
Yeah, thanks very much.
Sally
Well, there we have it. Another episode wrapped up. Thanks so much everybody for listening once again. If you want to learn more about Up bank, make sure to check out our review on Finder. We'll make sure to link to the review at our show notes at finder.com.au/podcast. And as a little treat, we actually have an exclusive offer going on right now. You can pick up a $5 cash bonus back into your account when you sign up through Finder, create an Up account and use the code "finder five". So we'll make sure to have all of those details in the show notes as well. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, feel free to leave us a little review, subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on Instagram at Pocket Money podcast.
Thanks for listening to Pocket Money from Finder. Head over to finder.com.au/podcast for the show notes for this episode. The Finder podcast is intended to provide you with tips, tools and strategies that will help you make better decisions. Although we're licenced and authorised, we don't provide financial advice. So please consider your own situation or get advice before making any decisions based on anything in our show. Thanks for listening.
Sally
See you all next time. I'm gonna go look for Mark now. I'm floundering without him.
