Podcast: Curveballs – how to stay resilient when the going gets tough
Subscribe to the podcast
Find us on social
Comedian and journalist Emma Markezic was young, single, freelancing, renting and partying hard when she was diagnosed with a potentially terminal cancer. Her world changed emotionally, financially and physically overnight.
Despite being broke, sick, bald and living alone, Emma says she found that she coped better than some people might cope with a paper cut. She was intrigued by why some people deal with life's curveballs better than others.
The journalist in Emma meant she wanted to do a deep dive into why some people are more resilient than others and if it's a skill that can be learned. As a result, she wrote her book Curveballs, which is part memoir and part self-help guide, after speaking to experts all over the world on how we can all develop skills to help deal with life's curly bits.
We also chat to Emma about how she coped financially when her life flipped upside down. She shares her experiences with spending and saving (as well as those expensive medical bills) and what she wishes she'd done better before she was sick.
Emma is warm, funny and relatable. She's also full of useful tips for anyone struggling out there right now. Whether it's from life in lockdown, living with financial uncertainty or just prepping for a future curveball, this episode will help arm you with the right tools and attitude to cope financially and emotionally.
Mentioned in this episode:
Curveballs: How to keep it together when life tries to tear you a new one
Read the transcript of this episode
-
Note: This is a machine-generated transcript. We've tidied it up, but we're sorry if any glitches have slipped through.
Emma
I got diagnosed with really aggressive breast cancer at the age of 32 when I was single, broke, living alone, partyling and then this sort of giant curveball came my way.Kate
Hey, pocket pals, welcome back to Pocket Money Finder's podcast for people who want to try and stay positive even when life is kicking your ass. Well, I don't know about you, but that's how I'm feeling and I'm broadcasting to you from my wardrobe again. Sally isn't on the line with me. This is a interview, I've done solo this time around. And I've done it with Emma Markezic, who's a journalist, broadcaster and an award winning comedian. Emma is also the author of a book called Curveballs, which is all about what happens when you will influence or as she puts it "when life tells you a new one. It's part memoir, part self help or wrapped up in some pretty funny writing. As you guys know, this is a podcast about money and life and we definitely get into the dollars and cents but in light of the world experiencing a collective curveball right now, we really came to hear what Emma's wisdom was on how to be resilient when things go very, very wrong in life, and with her finances. Just a quick heads up, and I'm sure you forgive us the recording we did do with Emma isn't the best quality. It's not studio quality. It's totally listenable. But just wanted to let you know, we're working remote circumstances at the moment and doing our best. So without further ado, let's hear from Emma herself. Emma, welcome to the show.Emma
Thanks for having me.Kate
Curveballs. Hey, the whole world is experiencing one right now. What's going on for you?Emma
Yeah, absolutely. is. This is pretty incredible. Actually, this is and I hate to use this word very overused right now. But unprecedented. Is it that it's it's amazing that everyone on the planet is experiencing a couple simultaneously right now?Kate
Yeah, it's unprecedented how much we're using the word unprecedented. But yeah, absolutely. So you write your book Curveballs well before we're all in locked down and going through at the moment. But look, I think, you know, like, it's perfectly placed to talk about, you know what's going on globally. But also tell us about what happened to you. What was your own personal curveballs that inspired you to write this book.Emma
So my curveball was essentially being diagnosed with potentially terminal cancer to a really young age. So I got diagnosed with a really aggressive breast cancer at the age of 32. When I was single, broke, living alone, partying, and then this sort of giant Curveball came my way and really did change my day to day life. I don't like to use phrases, which a lot of people use when they talk about cancer, things like my world turned upside down because, to me, my world didn't turn upside down. It's skewed sideways, certainly, and things changed. But I found that I got through it pretty unscathed except for a few styles and that sort of lead to the research behind this book, which is essentially about why people, some people handle couples better than others.Kate
I think you described, you seem to handle having, you know, a really aggressive cancer better than some people handle a paper card. What would you say to that?Emma
Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what happened. So I was, by far the youngest person in my ward. Most of the women in my ward were in their 60s and older. And they really were struggling emotionally with the disease. And I sort of didn't seem to have the same issues that they did. And so that led me to think is that because I was born more resilient than other people? Is it something I learned in childhood? Is it actually my age, it could be a number of factors. So that sort of led to about 12 months of research into trauma and resilience and really answering the question, can we learn resilience? And like spoiler alert? The answer is yes. Wecan learn resiliance, which is great for us right now. So yeah, that's sort of essentially where this came from. So I have some experience with curveballs, which is good.Kate
Yeah, I think you know that. That's right. And once you've learned those techniques, all you have them built in, which you've said is your kind of personal superpower. But I also thought it was really interesting because you went out and talked to a whole bunch of experts around the world, about what makes people resilient. How they can learn that. Tell me about some of the people you spoke to.Emma
Yeah, I found some really fascinating people. And one of my favourites is, his name is Paul Stevenson. He's a traumatologist. He's actually based in Melbourne, Australia. I thought what he had to say about the way we deal with trauma and how we deal with trauma differently, was really fascinating. So his example, one of his examples was, say, three people are in a car accident, they're in the exact same car accident. One person walks away, you know, sort of, oh, that was a weird thing that happened and I go about my day and the next the next person is sort of a bit shaken out for a couple of weeks, and a third person, just cannot seem to get over it, they don't want to get back in a car, they don't want to get back on the road. And they were all in the exact same car accident in the exact same car, but the way they do it is really different. So that helps to explain just outright why different people have different reactions. But what we're trying to get into this is where those reactions come from. And a lot of it does, unfortunately have to do without childhood. So there's not a lot we can do about that in adult life. And that starts to sound really dry childhood trauma. So what I try to do as a, as a journalist, and a comedian is trying to make it really palatable and funny, hopefully,Kate
Yeah, I thought it was really relatable. And also, I think a lot of times when we do talk about illness or trauma, you know, it is in this really serious way and there are a lot of funny things that can happen a lot along the way and I'm thinking even now we've lock down and the pandemic, obviously not to make light of it, but people who are seeing But a lot of us said today this, you know, some pretty funny things happening. I mean, the fact that I'm now interviewing you in a wardrobe? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Would you say things like that like focusing on some of the more ridiculous things or the things that like that is helpful?Emma
Absolutely. So I talked about in the book trying to find silver linings in everything, which some people again are better at than others. And the Internet has definitely tried to find a silver lining in the Coronavirus. That means off the charts, I have never seen so many fresh names on a daily basis since the Internet was invented. It's pretty incredible. But yes, there are absolutely ways to make the most of something, whatever that thing is. Because when it comes to trauma, there are things you control, and things you can't control. And so what you have to do is just deal with the things you can control and that is predominantly your reaction to that trauma, which comes out for a lot of people in Cuba, even if it is black humour.Kate
Is that was that a common theme with the experts that you spoke to for the book? Um, you've mentioned the traumatologist in Melbourne. What did other people who you spoke to have to say about this issue.Emma
Yes. So I spoke to people, obviously people who work with things like trauma, PTSD, lot of psychologists, I spoke to people from Harvard Medical School, I speak to someone who's an astrophysicist, all kinds of people from all around the world. And certainly, they all have something in common, and that is that they are all very optimistic people, there was no one I spoke to, that sort of couldn't make the most of a situation. And I think that what obviously has put them above and beyond in their field, and what puts people above and beyond in life is that ability to really make the most of whatever situation you're in. Because you can throw a pity party and I do talk about that, obviously, when I got diagnosed with cancer and thought I was gonna lose my hair, and my boobs, and my life savings. You know, I threw a pity party, but you have to absolutely put a time limit on that. And that's what a lot of people fail to do. I sort of said, Alright, this is gonna probably take about a month or so, all in. It's a pretty big thing to have to deal with. But after that, all I have to do after that is get on with it, because I just felt sorry for myself that entire year, it was gonna be really shitty.Kate
Yeah, that's a really good point. And I mean, that's, you know, it's about controlling how you feel about situations because you can't control the situation. Did the people you spoke to have advice and people that don't have that kind of natural inbuilt optimism, we hear a lot about how the brain is and how you can retrain your brain. What did you speak to them about things like that? How you can actually develop those skills if you don't have them naturally?Emma
Yeah, so we do talk a lot in the book about things like neuroplasticity, which is just retraining the pathways in the brain, which is, again, something sounds really complicated, but it's actually very easy.And so what I do is take these big ideas and trying to really shrink them down into really small things. They're very, very easy, very simple things. Because I mean, no one is lazier than a chemo patient. So if I could do that during chemo, I'm sure you'll be able to do them during lockdown.Kate
What are some examples of some of those things people can do?Emma
So one of the quickest ways to really work that neuroplasticity to your advantage is through linguistic programming, which is just using words, your brain loves words. So what I did, for example, during cancer was I wrote down called limiting beliefs, we all have limiting beliefs. And one of the big ones that we all have is you have to be healthy to be happy. It's pretty normal, right? Because when something bad happens, people say, well, at least to have your house. So what happens when suddenly you don't have your health anymore? You think, well, I've got nothing now. And so that's something that's really hard to get over when you have a medical emergency like cancer. So I had to get over that limiting belief that I had to be healthy to be happy because I wasn't healthy. But I wanted to be happy. So I just wrote down that exact sentence every day you have to be healthy to be happy. And then I would just cross it out. That's it. So that takes what three seconds. And it sounds, maybe a little woowoo. But compared to I'm not one for the really big self helpy journaling, meditation retreats, that's not my style. So I need something that's very quick and very easy. And this isn't journaling, this is something that we have proven can actually change pathways in the brain. So it's sort of like when you walk to work, and there's a corner you have to turn to get to work. And instead of walking all the way up the path, and then turning right, you sort of cut across, there's a little pathway that everyone everyone cuts across when they get to it that they can see in the grass, this little sort of pathway and a little shortcut, and that's exactly what the brain does. It craves that same thing. So if you take that path every day, eventually it'll wear its way this little groove we're wearing and suddenly your brain realises you don't need that. And so this is all part of building reasons. And the big takeaway of the book is the most amazing byproduct of resilience is happiness. So we spend all this time chasing happiness when what we should actually be chasing is resilience. Yeah, that's a really good point. And particularly at the moment, I think, when people often think that they need things or they need, you know, I don't know, they need to travel, they buy stuff to be happy. And you know, I think right now, when we're all really limited in what we can do, you know, you really got to lean into what actually, you know how you make yourself happy? Yeah, absolutely. And this is a really strange time for resilience, because a lot of people are trying to cut back, especially financially, so whether they've lost their job or not. So it's trying to find things that make us happy, that don't require other things that we don't already have. Because a lot of people the quick fixes, like a new outfit, or weekend away, or things require money. And we're trying to cut back on that. So what can we do with out these wads of money to work on our resilience and our happiness.Kate
We're gonna play a little quick game. This is something we do in the middle of the show called overrated underrated. I'm gonna throw a word or concept that you're noticing literally. And you can tell me whether you think it's overrated or underrated and feel free to riff on that. First one, Tinder or online dating,Emma
Oh, underrated, absolutely underrated. So, I went out in the middle of chemo, literally three months into my six month stint of chemo balls, no eyebrows, no eyelashes, nothing. And I was getting really sick and sitting at home alone and I got on Tinder and thought I'll just find someone you know, for just the one night I just was like a night off cancer. He doesn't know, I'll wear my wig, pick a really dark bar nad I'll sever have to see him again. And we're now engaged. So works really well. I have absolutely no problem with Tinder. I think I would not have been dating during chemo without the app so absolutely underrated.Kate
I love your optimism so I was like you know a woman. Okay my like you said I had no eyebrows, no eyelashes, bloated probably feeling like crap. Yeah, that's the definition of optimism. And that's amazing.Emma
Like I said, it was a very, very dark bar.Emma
So there is a tip as well, pick a dark bar. Yeah. All right. I'm gonna throw another one. I have customised them for you. Wigs, overrated or underratedEmma
Oh, that's actually a tough one. I'm gonna say overrated. I never thought I would say that as someone who had, how many I had five I think during chemo one, one which is real hairwig which was customised my head which is very expensive, which my friends have done kindly crowdfunded for me, and a few eBay specials, one for every occasion, and I think what I discovered was they weren't as necessary as I thought they were gonna be. They were really nice cushion to have, and I certainly would have gone out dating without a week. But I realised that I was relying on that too heavily and we rely on our hair too heavily back now. Certainly so if there's one thing cancer can teach you very swiftly, it's that perfectly curled her really just not a great point.Kate
Yeah, it quite literally strips you back to the bare essence of yourself.Did you have a name who want to be weeks?Emma
I did. Gloria. Yeah. I could go and get glorified.Kate
We were in Gloria, when you went on in your day.Emma
I was I was wearing GLORIA And I will Gloria for the first four months of our relationship. He didn't see me without it for months. So you know what she did? She did me proud. No question. No question, but I wouldn't say that it's overrated. But yes, I probably I probably would not have met my fiance. Without Gloria.Kate
All right, another one. This was not a big dove Emma's got an Australian accent but she's actually just make noise from Chicago. Yeah, it's a very cold, and oh, I like it. cold and snowy place. Snow overrated or underrated?Emma
Oh, so underrated. I don't understand why people complain about the snow. I think it's incredible. Just part of the reason I'm here I just love this book so much. And I think the reason I love the snow is it's, it's, it's almost like you can appreciate the light without the darkness. And I don't think you as an Australian. It's sort of hard to appreciate the incredible summers we have without the darkness of an American winter. It's just its own special thing.Kate
Again, a very optimistic take. I think of someone I know that lives in Sweden. I was like, What do you think about snow? And he just said, How do you feel about cold wet shoes? Thank you for your overrated underrated. Big shout out to online dating, wigs and snow. I'm gonna put on my list to go back to your cance shaped curveball. Emma which you know. Obviously as you said it before let you a young you have freelancing you were single I think you were renting on your own yeah. Look the show is about money like that's just like a nuclear bomb landing in your life. Cancer is a long whole all encompassing. The people that aren't familiar with it, it takes months of treatment where you can't work you're really debilitated. What did you learn from the financial hit? Like what what was some of the really profound things you realised you know, being young, being really well, not being able to work what what did you learn from that?Emma
Yeah, you you have to learn a lot. About your finances and you have cancer. And it's a position that people will apply themselves right now as well with the Coronavirus with the layoffs. It's sort of the financial pressure that comes with a curveball. And being that all I had to my name was my rather meagre life savings, I was quite stressed about that. And no one wants to clean out their life savings in their in their early 30s. That wasn't something I was really thinking about it and that my savings is meant to be for, you know, once in a lifetime holiday or my retirement - that's what that was meant to be for. And I was incredibly stressed about where I was going to find the money to that. And then I sort of realised what a life savings for, if not for saving your life. So when I sort of thought about it in that way, I realised this was the perfect thing to use my life savings for. And so I didn't feel so guilty about about using them in that sense, and I was lucky that I had a little bit put away. And I think the one thing that I learned was, I had been saving for cancer before I even knew I had cancer. Because when I first started working full time, and this is the only really probably smart thing I've ever done financially, is, I start with a full time I put away $50 a week, which isn't a lot. And I set up that as an automatic transfer. And I think the smart thing I did was make it a different bank than my everyday bank. So you very quickly forget about that. It's happening automatically. I forgot I even had an account with that bank. And it was actually with ING bank when I first opened because and the reason they got me in was because you could call your account, whatever you want, which is a really small thing. But that's what got me in so I had one cold Rainy Day Fund, which is what I use for this I had another one called for the Taxman, another one, you know, and I still had five different I could remember where that money was and what it was for very easily. And so that money was just going in for years and years and years. And then suddenly, it was there when I needed it. And it's not the thing you're going to retire on. It's not going to buy you a house. But is this amazing little buffer, and it's not much. And you can do that as a percentage of your salary. Obviously, I was earning, I think my first salary out of uni was something like $32,000 It wasn't a lot of money. So I was doing it on that salary and those $50 a week - you very quickly forget that it's even going out of your account so you don't see it. And that is what I use. So what I learned was, I was perhaps financially smarter than I was, and I will absolutely keep doing that. Going forward. We need to bring that account back up again. So it's sort of Yeah, it was definitely sort of the key thing I learned was sometimes you save something that you don't even know is coming.Kate
That's a really it's really interesting because I think you know when you're when you're younger and like you said a lot of people going through this now people that have worked successfully freelance or you know that they're not expecting to get sick you know that like you said, you know, even in the cancer ward, you know that most of the women around you are in the 60s. It is easy to think you kind of bulletproof financially, health wise You know, even career wise, was is there anything looking back you wish you could have done better? YEmma
eah, I think the one thing I wish I had done differently pre curveball is probably, and this, you know is in response to all of those things is to not be so terrified of money. And I was in my 20s I was absolutely terrified. I still am little bit and as soon as a magazine article suggested I, you know, keep a monthly budget or so I just avoid that. It is unrealistic for me to think I will be able to change that entirely. But what I did realise during treatment, and mostly because I was forced to and this helped a lot, and I wish I had done this earlier is to understand that if you can't keep a monthly budget, you have to keep a monthly spending plan instead. So that's sort of what I had to do because you have to have that money when those bills come in. So I would not write down how much was coming in, which is what a budget is about how much is coming in, really, and how much of that you want to keep. It was just how much was going out, or how much I needed for bills and how much I wanted to spend on wine and wigs, to whatever else. So I wasn't really denying myself anything, but I was just aware of how much was actually going out a month, which I had never been before. I just sort of spent what I had. So I still now am more aware of what I'm spending monthly. It's not a budget as such, it just is a step to being more aware of what money is going out.Kate
It's really interesting because you just basically applied what you were talking about, about linguistic you know, changing the way you name things. So you talk about how you named that account and how you know the word budget has really negative connotations, you know, or changing it to spending changing it to whatever kind of peaks you buzz. Yeah, yeah, and it sounds Sort of overly simplistic, but it clearly really fits for a lot of people. And I always say like, when I hear budget, I immediately think, oh, someone's going to tell me to stop drinking coffee. And I'm like, Well, I'd rather you know, not be alive if I can't drink coffee. You know? And it's like, it doesn't have to be that way. And I think a lot of I was used the word, the phrase sticking your head in the sand. And it's really apt to do that. But I think, you know, you're absolutely right. It just applied the same principle, whether it's a pandemic to your own money. It's about how you think about it, how you frame it to you, and look at it as a force for good not for evil.Emma
Yes, exactly. Exactly. I'm having a money buddy, which is probably something that I would imagine financial advisors would suggest. I don't have a money buddy per se but I do now have a fiance so it does make me more accountable for what I'm spending sometimes. So I try to buy for real me sort of imaginary me, which is what I did a lot before. I would buy a lot of things for imaginary me for future. Like future me loves say couldn't pant suits for example I mean real me does as well but I would buy these ridiculous outfits thinking once cancer is over or once quarantine is over you know I get to where there's an imagine that's such a nice pastime imagining wearing this outfit, but that's just not financially or environmentally responsible to do that so what I try to do now and I suddenly think it's just for real me or is it for imaginary me and that's what I guess I'm money buddy is helpful because they can kind of remind you that maybe real you doesn't need six inch heels in quarantine.. Yeah, yeah.Kate
Yeah. Like even your even your Alter Ego could be your money, buddy. Your authentic self rather than your project itself. And again, in light of the pandemic, it is interesting. I think a lot of people talk about stuff like that because there's always that oh, when when this happens or when I get to this so when I get to that and like you said when you have cancer that doesn't really work, you know, that is an enddate but you know, it's pretty nebulous. So yes you've got to re frame you know what's going to work for you. But I do feel, as I mentioned before, I'm sitting in my wardrobe. So I'm looking at my guilty purchases right now. So I think having a hard conversation with my alter ego about my spending, I guess, to wrap up like a best question is how are things going for you now health wise, likewiseEmma
Health is good, cancer free, since 93, not since 93, just since the 2018 now - which is great, right? Very exciting. 2 years clear. spot, I am now prepared and you have to prepare as a former cancer patient to come back at any time. Unfortunately, Cancer has a habit of doing that. So I'm definitely more mentally prepared. And perhaps I was more mentally prepared for the pandemic and the lockdown than other people because I've dealt with something which seemed impossible before and it's sort of similar. You take it in your stride and you learn how to take these things in your stride by learning and teaching yourself resilience absolutely, it's what couples is all about. And I think it was very, I can never say this word, professorial. So I'm really hoping that more people discover it during this time, because I think it would be incredibly helpful for a lot of people right now who are really doing a talk, and I'm not making light of how tough people are doing it with layoffs, and certainly with having the virus, there are certain things in life which aren't denoucable. To some people. Cancer is one of those things for some, it is the thing that takes them and so to expect that you're gonna fight the good fight, you just get over it, optimism wins, everything is also unrealistic. And that's not what optimism is about at all. It's just simply being able to make the most of the time you haveKate
Rather than just that kind of blind, all encompassing statement about stay positive.Emma
Yeah. Which is very unhelpful. Really it is, and it's similar to what we're hearing. Now. With trying to make the most of a global pandemic like you should learn piano and make videos. And that's do not believe everything you see on the internet. Obviously, that's not what you need to be doing right now if that's not what suits you. You can absolutely sit at home with popcorn, and watch movies all day, it's fine, do not have to feel bad about that. As long as you're not wallowing in it. It's absolutely fine to do that. That's what I'm doing. I've really, I've really caught up on Netflix in its entirety. And if you haven't seen Tiger King yet, you definitely should watch that one.Kate
Now, there's a hobby we could all get into when we get out. If you have to say one thing that someone could take away from this chat today, what would it be? I think it would be that if it hasn't already, then powerful, bigger than Donald Trump's head is coming for you at some point. It is just a byproduct of being alive. One will come to you eventually. So I don't necessarily need you to prepare for it. I just think that Everyone, no matter who they are, what situation they find themselves in, will get incredible gains from working on their resilience, the absolute best of which is being happy. You cannot not be happy if you are resilient person. And you can be you can be single, boss and living alone and still be happy. And I know that because I was that person. And so if you can take anything away from this, I think it's just the word resilience and figuring out what that means to you.Kate
Yeah, that's great advice. Thanks so much for joining us. Stay safe out there in the halen listener.Emma
Absolutely will do.Kate
Thanks for listening. Just reminder we have episodes available every Wednesday. If you want to follow us on Instagram we at Pocket Money podcast just a reminder to share this episode with a friend. If you have so many needs a bit of a spark on happiness and resilience and this show will definitely deliver that jumping our Facebook group. We've got links in the show notes or shootSally and me a message on Instagram if you need any help finding resources or answers Don't forget we're at Pocket Money podcast catch you next time.Sally
Thanks for listening to Pocket Money from Finder. Head over to find out comm slash podcast for the show notes for this episode. The Finder podcast is intended to provide you with tips, tools and strategies that will help you make better decisions. Although we're licenced and authorised, we don't provide financial advice. So please consider your own situation or get advice before making any decisions based on anything in our show.Thanks for listening
The Finder Pocket Money podcast is intended to provide you with tips, tools, and strategies that will help you make better decisions. Although we're licensed and authorised, we (and our guests) aren't providing any form of financial or legal advice. So please consider your own situation and get proper advice about your individual circumstances before making any decisions based on anything on our show. Thanks for listening.
Have questions for the Pocket Money crew? Want to suggest a future episode idea? Hoping to speak with other curious young adults sorting through their lives and their money?
- Join the Pocket Money private Facebook group
- Follow Pocket Money on Instagram
- Follow Finder on Twitter
- Like Finder on Facebook
Pocket Money is hosted by Sally McMullen and Kate Browne, produced and directed by Ankita Shetty and Franko Ali, with editing by Josh Litherland.
finder.com.au (ACL 385509. CAR 432664) is Australia's most popular comparison site. We like to help, and while we understand that our podcast provides information, insight and entertainment, it's not personal advice. Consider your own circumstances and get advice before you make any decision based on our general comments and commentary.
